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"I think it is important that MCRGO members are informed about how we are being treated." - David K. Felbeck, President of MCRGO - October 24, 2003
[Original Message Board Post: November 13, 2003] Subject: History Repeats Itself aka: Deja Vu I'm more of a lurker than an activist here on these boards, it's true...but I just can't keep my Irish dander down when I discover such blatant censorship CONTINUING within this organization. Was it even a year ago when MCRGO shut down the message boards and censored posts "they" deemed destructive criticism??? (By the way....who the heck is "they" anyway?...those who seem to have omnipotent power to censor here???) To all of you who fall under the "they" category....you make a mockery of what MCRGO stands for. I'm sure, at election time you stand before the anti-gunners and spout rhetoric to them that the 2nd Amendment can't be taken away without loss of the 1st Amendment and others. I'm sure you preach the gospel to your anti-gun friends when given the opportunity stating that the right to Keep and Bear Arms is exactly that....a right. How can you all look at yourselves in the mirror each morning when you censor here? I'm not sure what you refer to it as...but quite frankly, I call it talking out both sides of your mouth(s) at the same time! This organization contrary to your highly-exaggerated opinions was in deep and serious doggy-doo-doo after the last censorship fiasco. Why is membership down? Poor leadership. What is good leadership? Leading by example. Practicing what you preach. Does any of this ring familiar? Did many of you whine and complain the last go around and now sit back and allow repeat action? Have we learned nothing? MCRGO will end up in SPITE of 9,000 members as toilet material. It will end up as one of the great "shame" stories of Michigan. Quite frankly, as a member, I don't care if a topic is sensitive in nature, and I don't care if it questions leadership. I want to know member opinions and leadership responses. What I don't want to see is censorship...and by the way (fellow members) I don't want to see childish unbased slanderous statements about each other either! I have (as many of you who know me will attest) a very hard time with participation in Organizations not exercising professionalism or leadership. Along with many other members, I have held onto my membership in the hopes that the new leadership recently elected would prove to fill those gaps the previous group left unfilled. Now I see greater distension than before, and greater shame... I ask "you" to reinstate the posts that were removed, and the members who posted them. It is my right as a member to see them. I also ask you to abide by ALL the Rights granted us, as it is NOT your choice to choose for us. Lead us by good example...and we will follow...and if not, well membership will drop to 8,999. Sue _________________ Sue Shaw NRA Training Counselor, RSO, Certified Instructor, Recruiter for SE & Central Michigan --- Last evening around 6:30 I received the following from the "gate keepers" here: Hello Sue Shaw, The following is an email sent to you by Jim Kleiman via your account on MCRGOForums.org. If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address: webmaster@mcrgo.org Include this full email (particularly the headers). Please note that the reply address to this email has been set to that of Jim Kleiman. Message sent to you follows ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sue Shaw You agree, through your voluntary use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material, which: "Recklessly and/or aimlessly Criticizes or bashes MCRGO, it's Directors, staff, members' activities or MCRGO itself". The following post was found to be critical of MCRGO. Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:29 am ....as toilet material. It will end up as one of the great "shame" stories of Michigan. ....Now I see greater distension than before, and greater shame... If we have another occasion where your post warrants editing or removal, it will result in a 10 day suspension of Posting Privileges. Please review our Message Board Rules (TOS). Forum Moderators --- Jim, No sir. My post was NOT critical of MCRGO...but MCRGO Leadership. The Organization of itself is awesome, and it's mission pure...I couldn't agree more with the basis of it's foundation. My post IS critical however of creating absolute power. Ever hear the saying "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely"? An Organization that refuses to hear it's membership is no longer an Organization by definition. What right had you to notify me AFTER you made changes to a post I sent? You have now by your (your meaning the omnipotent moderators) own accord changed MY post. It is no longer my words, but yours. It is now false and misleading. Restore it or remove it immediately! To those of you lucky enough to see the post before it became the "abashed" edition and was whisked off to "toilet material" land....I leave the following statement (until the censor Gods rear their ugly heads once again): Jim and the attending Moderators herein: I disagree with your "loose interpretation" of the TOS for the following reasons: You stated that by my remarks, I '"Recklessly and/or aimlessly Criticizes or bashes MCRGO, it's Directors, staff, members' activities or MCRGO itself".'... The legal term for reckless is as follows: RECKLESS - highly unreasonable conduct that is an extreme departure from ordinary care No Jim (and others)...this was NOT unreasonable conduct on my part, nor was it a departure from ordinary care. I willfully and intentionally with (some may question this)...sound mind and body wrote that post and meant every single word of it. There was NOTHING reckless about it. And...as an opinion, I still believe in the validity of the statements I posted...they were neither vengeful...spiteful or lacking 'political correctness'. AIMLESS - aimlessly drifting, adrift, afloat, directionless, plan less, rudderless, undirected, purposeless - not evidencing any purpose of goal No Jim (and others)...this was not aimless. I followed topic, had direction...meaning, purpose, plans, etc. for each word, sentence and paragraph. "Bashes MCRGO, it's Directors, staff, members' activities or MCRGO itself" No Jim (and others)...Reiterating history no matter how embarrassing it may or may not be, is not bashing....OH...and I politely also commented to other members (if you recall) that I didn't expect to see wrongful posts from members either...do you remember that sentence?...here...I have it for you to recall...."and by the way (fellow members) I don't want to see childish unbased slanderous statements about each other either!"...so I was equal in addressing leadership and membership on these issues. My words taken out of context can mean anything you wish them to, in context they ask you to think. So...what you have told me by your editing is that....you can't "think" or ask others to "think" on the forum boards...is this correct? Lets take a poll here and see how many other folks who had the opportunity to read the original uncensored post felt that it bashed MCRGO or in any way violated the TOC. (yes TOC...Terms of Censorship seem more appropriate here). Additionally, I would like to know on what criteria and training you base your interpretation of the TOS...ie: do you hold a degree in censorship or what...obviously moderators must have some form of qualifications to censor these boards....so, what grounds are they selected...what is the minimum criteria to hold these positions? (Do you use a dictionary???) BTW...even in court I am innocent until proven guilty... Thanks in advance for enlightening me... Sue Shaw Proud to stand up for what I believe in even when threatened. _________________ Sue Shaw NRA Training Counselor, RSO, Certified Instructor, Recruiter for SE & Central Michigan
[Original Message Board Post: November 14, 2003] Subject: What have you done? What have I done? As one of the most active instructors in Southwest Michigan, I used to spend about 10 minutes in every class singing the praises of MCRGO and signing up new members right in class. Do I do that anymore? Not a chance. With all of the infighting that I see on these boards I would be embarrassed to recommend this group to anyone. There are a couple of issues that I find particularly distressing. The first is the Gestapo like tactics of the leadership of this organization from the standpoint of stifling debate on the board. Careful what you say or you will be banned. Don't step over the line or you will be banned. Even Neva and Barbara are treading on eggshells. How ridiculous is that? The second issue that I really have a problem with is our ED, Chuck Perricone. I used to hold him in high esteem but in my opinion, since he left office, he has evolved into one more political whore. When he led the Republican party as the leader of the house he appeared to have certain principles that he fought for. Now he will work for anybody. He works for us but he also consults for the union, a group that financially supports causes and politicians that he was diametrically opposed to when he was in office. I doubt if I will be renewing my membership when it is up in April. After this post I will probably be banned also. (Having been a rebellious teen from the 70's, I was kinda [sic] feeling left out anyway!) Phil Reames NRA Instructor NRA Life Member Financial Planner Chairman, Kalamazoo County Gun Board --- From: "Phil Reames" To: "Michigan Concealed Gun Owners" Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 10:48 PM Subject: [MCGO] Post deleted message and my reply Here is the MCRGO email warning to me along with my response below it. Hello Phil Reames, The following is an email sent to you by Jim Kleiman via your account on MCRGOForums.org. If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address: webmaster@mcrgo.org Include this full email (particularly the headers). Please note that the reply address to this email has been set to that of Jim Kleiman. Message sent to you follows ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Phil Reames, You agree, through your voluntary use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material, which: "Recklessly and/or aimlessly Criticizes or bashes MCRGO, it's Directors, staff, members' activities or MCRGO itself". The following post was found to be reckless criticism of MCRGO. Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:04 pm "The second issue that I really have a problem with is our ED, Chuck Perricone. I used to hold him in high esteem but in my opinion, since he left office, he has evolved into one more political ...." If we have another occasion where your post warrants editing or removal, it will result in a 10 day suspension of Posting Privileges. Please review our Message Board Rules (TOS). Forum Moderators --- Hey Jim, Why don't you get a friggin [sic] dictionary. Look up the definition of reckless. "Reckless (rek'lis) adj. State of being careless and rash when doing something." If you are going to give me a warning, at least be accurate about what you are warning me about. I can assure you that there was nothing careless or rash about what I posted. I posted it with careful consideration and ample forethought. I meant every word of it. Your Gestapo like tactics of silencing any and all opposition is just one more example of why I would be embarrassed to ever recommend this group to any of my students. Your actions are more like what I would expect from the Clinton Administration than what I would expect from someone in a second amendment group. Disrespectfully, Phil Reames NRA Instructor NRA Life Member Financial Planner Chairman, Kalamazoo County Gun Board
[Original Message Board Post: November 22, 2003] In response to what Ken "heard," the fact is that I removed the minutes of Executive Sessions of the Board of Directors prior to the folder being given to a person who was not a Director. The Coalition has no obligation to open the minutes of its Executive Sessions to the membership; any open-meetings laws do not apply to non-profit organizations. For the record, *everything* that I removed was returned to the custody of the MCRGO leadership on the day my tenure as President and Director ended. Anyone who alleges otherwise does not know the facts. Ken, I accept your apology in advance. David Felbeck --- Any propaganda coming from you Doctor Felbeck is neither accepted or believed. For someone who flagrantly violated the bylaws by campaigning for a slate of "Proven Leadership" candidates, you will NEVER directly receive an apology from me. You are not alone Doc. Felbeck, as your co-conspirators on the BoD are just as guilty as you are for not upholding our bylaws. I am extremely ashamed of the disgrace you and your fellow BoD members have brought to MCRGO. Tar and feathering would be a light sentence for the whole pompous bunch of you. If MCRGO back-door dealings were made public, the current BoD would have never been elected (excluding some). I am very fortunate to have not been elected with this bunch and tarnish my good name. I suppose I have you and your now defunct cheerleaders to thank for that Doctor Felbeck. Ken Cooper --- Hello Ken Cooper, The following is an email sent to you by Jim Kleiman via your account on MCRGOForums.org. If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address: webmaster@mcrgo.org Include this full email (particularly the headers). Please note that the reply address to this email has been set to that of Jim Kleiman. Message sent to you follows ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ken Cooper You agree, through your voluntary use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material, which: "Recklessly and/or aimlessly Criticizes or bashes MCRGO, it's Directors, staff, members' activities or MCRGO itself". Your post also Criticizes an individual by name: Dr. Felbeck. The following post was deleted from our message board: Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:30 pm [Original post included above.] If we have another occasion where your post warrants editing or removal, it will result in a 30 day suspension of Posting Privileges. Please review our Message Board Rules (TOS).
[Posted on message board: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:01 pm] Hello Don Carley, The following is an email sent to you by Jim Kleiman via your account on MCRGOForums.org. If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address: webmaster@mcrgo.org Include this full email (particularly the headers). Please note that the reply address to this email has been set to that of Jim Kleiman. Message sent to you follows ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don Carley You agree, through your voluntary use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material, which: "Contains false and / or defamatory material that you knew to be incorrect". The following post was deleted by MCRGO Forum Moderators: Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:01 pm Lets see $25.00 membership $5.00 to the ED for bringing in new memberships $20.00 to the General fund to pay ------- salaries of hmmmmmmmm I don't think so in this climate. If we have another occasion where your post warrants editing or removal, it will result in a permanent suspension of Posting Privileges. Please review our Message Board Rules (TOS). Your posting privleges will resume Jan 3rd. --- Jim I do respectfully disagree with you that this information is false. As per the contract with New Era and Charles Perricone he receives 20% of all new memberships. Please elaborate on how this may be false information. 5. Compensation. Principal shall pay to Contractor the following: a. A retainer of $5,000 per month payable to New Era Consulting, LLC. b. $500 per month for expenses such as mileage, cellular service, home office expenses, and the like; c. 20% of the gross revenues received per month from the new membership secured through Contractor's efforts; d. 10% of the gross revenues received per month from renewals of memberships that has previously been secured through Contractor's efforts; e. 15% of the gross revenues per month secured as a result of advertising and fundraising efforts arranged and facilitated by Contractor; and f. 15% of the net revenues per month secured as a result of fundraising events conceived and arranged by Contractor. Don Carley --- What I've read below says "payable to New Era Consulting, LLC", not "payable to ED" Jim Kleiman
[Notified: December 23, 2003] Hello Ken Cooper, The following is an email sent to you by Jim Kleiman via your account on MCRGOForums.org. If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address: webmaster@mcrgo.org Include this full email (particularly the headers). Please note that the reply address to this email has been set to that of Jim Kleiman. Message sent to you follows ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ken Cooper You agree, through your voluntary use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material, which: "Recklessly and/or aimlessly Criticizes or bashes MCRGO, it's Directors, staff, members' activities or MCRGO itself". Our TOS also state that we will not use this BB to post false and / or defamatory material. The following posts were considered critical, false, and defamatory: Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:11 pm Yes, I can hardly wait until the count-down is complete, until then we can either assume everything we read in On Target is a lie or accept the text as fact. The choice is yours. Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:40 am Too bad Frank doesn't live in Michigan, otherwise he could buy himself a seat on our Board. Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 9:00 am The thing you have to remember is NOTHING is done without the ED's approval, and NO-ONE gets into that office except the person who took pictures of that mess! I don't know about the rest of you, but I understand why NO-ONE was invited into THAT office. Besides, who has the money to provide the refreshments? A great opportunity lost, but I don't think any UNION folks were there in support anyway. I am sorry I had to miss the event. If there are other occasions where your posts warrant editing or removal, it will result in a permanent suspension of posting privileges. Your posting privleges will resume Jan 23. Forum Moderators
[Original Message Board Post: December 30, 2003] Subject: Will you renew your MCRGO membership? I'm going to re-new. I believe in the GOALS of this organization, and support them. HOWEVER, until Chuckie goes, I don't see anything good being accomplished anytime soon. Tim Wilson --- HOWEVER, until Chuckie goes, I don't see anything good being accomplished anytime soon. If we have another occasion where your post warrants editing or removal, it will result in a 30 day suspension of Posting Privileges. Your posting privleges will resume Jan 9th. Forum Moderators
[Original Message Board Post: January 21, 2004] Subject: message board Hello John R. Johnson, The following is an email sent to you by Jim Kleiman via your account on MCRGOForums.org. If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address: webmaster@mcrgo.org Include this full email (particularly the headers). Please note that the reply address to this email has been set to that of Jim Kleiman. Message sent to you follows ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John R. Johnson You agree, through your voluntary use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material, which: "Recklessly and/or aimlessly * Criticizes or bashes MCRGO, it's Directors, staff, members' activities or MCRGO itself" The following post was removed: Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:01 pm Might some be underestimating the scope of member dissatisfaction? Might some be led to believe that what they are told is but a tiny fraction of dissenters may actually be a developing exodus? This is a legitimate question. It is not meant to be abusive, offensive, to inflame, smear, libel, embarrass, berate, be false, defamatory, incorrect, etc. It is a mere question intended to engage a discussion on the current state of affairs as this members only board was created to address. If this type of question is too dangerous to allow to remain posted, I believe I'll have received my answer. This is the 4th occurance. Posting privleges has been removed. Forum Moderators --- Mr. Kleiman, Could you please point out the portion of my post that is in violation of the ToS and/or that specifically: "Recklessly and/or aimlessly * Criticizes or bashes MCRGO, it's Directors, staff, members' activities or MCRGO itself"? Please do not ignore my request. I think I am entitled to that much. Thank you, John R. Johnson --- Your post suggested "member dissatisfaction" & "a developing exodus". Neither of these remarks are true. Yet you knowingly posted these inflammatory remarks designed to insult and defame MCRGO. --- Mr. Kleiman, We both know that my comments were questions, not "inflammatory remarks". Is that not what a "members only forum" is supposed to be for? I think you will be suprised to find both questions I posed to be proven very true within the next several days. You needn't be concerned about an apology or restoring my posting rights when I am proven correct. I have no intention on participating in your sterile autocratic "ponzi" scheme that poses as a gun "rights" organization. Good Luck with your "new direction". My sympathies, John R. Johnson
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